Curse

maxxfury · Jan 05, 2010, 06:26 AM // 06:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by trcvrs

Except you don't because you won't be able to guarantee a kill like that in hard areas. Seriously. Just try vloxen, SoO or slavers. N/A is one of the worst heroes to take. If you disagree, offer proof to the contrary.

Never had any trouble with them failing to do their job tbh in any vanqs or missions i took them in, and a quick macro of ap to a side mouse button isnt hard if they do get confused, heroes have the option to micro their skills for a reason.

Smart use of AP(micro'd or not) is almost foolproof of getting a proc. Knowing when to hit it only takes a little practice.
Obviously you dont run it in very heavy hex removal areas, thats not using your head.

Also i wouldnt take them everywhere but they are far from the worst hero you can take.

And erm, offer proof it IS the worst? nah nah just kidding, i wont go down that road, just playing around.

On topic, it's a melee, it has sy, its not discoway!

After more testing I still feel that Barbs is a totally wasted slot, and im still not sure about rigor, and wether its used enough to warrent a slot on the bar with the exception of when you have a lot of block in the area, probably a specialized optional more than a mainbar.

Im leaning more towards mop staying on the bar personally now, but only after dumping barbs!!! *shudders* that just felt so out of place and cumbersome, it off balanced the bar too much. Really made the whole casting feel wrong.

Also leaning more towards FGJ also, as keeping up Sy before and after the mop nuke, for stragglers ect is way easier and more beneficial to the bots.

I think some people are forgetting that SY+melee damage alone are a better option than most caster bars you could be running. In a henchie situation. Gw is balanced ( lol ) around melee having the best damage outputs.

Page Down Warhammer · Jan 05, 2010, 09:07 AM // 09:07

I'm just throwing my 2 cents in here, but a good amount of pointage into earth magic and I can use kinetic armor to go toe to toe with any warrior. Casting a spell every 8 (10 with +20% enchating) seconds is no biggy if you just maitain AoR I normally go something like assasin secondary and attack with zealous daggers

Xenomortis · Jan 05, 2010, 11:38 AM // 11:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Unless you constantly consume alcohol, a N/W cannot hope to match the effectiveness of even a W/N (slower attack speed = less MoP triggers in a given time frame), let alone a W + N combo.

Did you miss my point on this? That's impressive, since you quoted my post that was almost entirely on that subject.

If a warrior doesn't want to drink, then he either suffers a reduction in effectiveness with DM or he brings Frenzy.
The same applies for a caster running into the frontlines waving a sword.
The only IAS the warrior gets over you is Flail, but I regard Flail to be weaker and it's only really effective when you have Knockdowns (ie: on a Hammer bar).

glountz · Jan 05, 2010, 01:35 PM // 13:35

The only point of this build is to solo HM content with a necro with a way to put this so wanted SY! up.
If you're a necro wanting to solo vainquish, then you may need SY!, and this build is nice for that.
However, trying to argue that a player warrior with HB and SY! + N/A hero is inferior to your meleemancer + whatever hero is... Well...
You should seriously reconsider your position. I won't go into details because my time is too precious to be lost in sterile arguments. Other people already have made concerns, and you're obviously stubborn about this point.
To be short, you really forget about the "timing" and "speed" in your equation. By the time you put your hexes and be able to use SY! with your meleemancer, mobs will already have destroyed your party (especially if they have some elementalists), whereas with necro+warrior, people will be protected and damage to mobs will be done sooner. People already have stated that additionnally, getting from mobs to mobs with a W+N/A is quicker.

Again, this build is nice in HM if you're a necro with only H&H at your disposal. Other than that....
Play a warrior.
Or better. Find a warrior guildmate with your curse necro to play with.

AtomicMew · Jan 05, 2010, 05:01 PM // 17:01

Quote:

You're telling us that's worth all the alcohol you have to consume

Dude, what alcohol? You keep mentioning alcohol, but a necro basically has the same options as a warrior: DM and frenzy. I have no idea why you keep harping on this, especially since both me and xeno have been trying to point this out for two pages now.

Quote:

And here's another thing: cast times.

The only spell that is essential is MoP is one cast every 20 seconds. I have no idea why people think that's a deal breaker. After more testing I still feel that Barbs is a totally wasted slot, and im still not sure about rigor, and whether its used enough to warrant a slot on the bar with the exception of when you have a lot of block in the area, probably a specialized optional more than a mainbar.

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

Im leaning more towards mop staying on the bar personally now, but only after dumping barbs!!!

Also leaning more towards FGJ also, as keeping up Sy before and after the mop nuke, for stragglers ect is way easier and more beneficial to the bots.

100% agree about barbs and FGJ.

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

The only point of this build is to solo HM content with a necro with a way to put this so wanted SY! up.
If you're a necro wanting to solo vainquish, then you may need SY!, and this build is nice for that.
However, trying to argue that a player warrior with HB and SY! + N/A hero is inferior to your meleemancer + whatever hero is... Well...
You should seriously reconsider your position. I won't go into details because my time is too precious to be lost in sterile arguments.

That's really quite annoying when someone basically posts the same thing on page one when were on page four. Please read the thread before posting. If your "time" is too precious, then don't bother at all.

Also, you don't "need" SY! to vanquish anywhere. I literally did all my VQs with discordway + AP caller with almost no problem at all. AP calling is a speed tactic, and in harder areas it sometimes fails. That is why an N/A hero wont always be a good choice.

Xenomortis · Jan 05, 2010, 05:08 PM // 17:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by trcvrs

After more testing I still feel that Barbs is a totally wasted slot, and im still not sure about rigor, and whether its used enough to warrant a slot on the bar with the exception of when you have a lot of block in the area, probably a specialized optional more than a mainbar.

Well I'm about to try this out. I've stuck Mark of Fury at 4 Blood on my bar but didn't really think about FGJ (not sure why, it's a more obvious choice). Might sub-out Rigor for it.

Still deciding on heroes though.

Edit:

Took the following into Vloxen HM.
Me: OAFUQITdY6S9F7gTNQVWCXFqixgA
Vekk: OgNDwrrvO1DtYAxlA1mH0iaB
Xandra: OACjEyiM5MXzyZ1EjxMlmTuLGA
Gwen: OQREAZwTezgnXBZgegQzOM6EAA

Reached Bellok (which is the furthest I've managed in my HM H/H attempts). His group was a pain on account of me screwing up and wiping on top of the res-shrine. I was at 57% DP after killing him. Didn't have any DP removal so I gave up there and then.

This build only really excels when MoP gets thrown onto a target. The damage done by the sword alone is rather pathetic - under SoH at 10 smiting I would only do about 20 a hit. Whirlwind Attack was the skill with a +Damage clause.
Admittedly, the sword I was using wasn't customised and lacks a prefix mod. I wasn't sure which mod I'd want to use.

Oh, RH is pointless at such a low level, but I only noticed after I left.

Edit 2: I have just discovered a very embarrassing reason as to why I might have been dealing so little damage. I neglected to check the requirement of the sword I was using.

AtomicMew · Jan 06, 2010, 04:50 AM // 04:50

Your vekk and xandra are basically what I use, although I took convert hexes instead of reverse. I'm not a fan of mesmer heroes, I'd rather use a communing hero, which synergizes with painful bond.

Also, eve has mark of fury, so you don't need to take it on your own bar. Just make sure you call out your target.

Xenomortis · Jan 06, 2010, 11:09 AM // 11:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by trcvrs

Also, eve has mark of fury, so you don't need to take it on your own bar. Just make sure you call out your target.

Forgot that. I'm still a bit iffy on Eve. She'll follow me to the frontlines to use BR even though she may be flagged back and I really do not need the energy myself.

I tried using Razah as a communing rit earlier but against the summit I really wanted something to disrupt their enchantments.

I might try again with some changes (convert hexes probably stands a better chance at stripping Soothing Images).

reaper with no name · Jan 07, 2010, 07:21 AM // 07:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by trcvrs

Dude, what alcohol? You keep mentioning alcohol, but a necro basically has the same options as a warrior: DM and frenzy. I have no idea why you keep harping on this, especially since both me and xeno have been trying to point this out for two pages now.

With frenzy, you're even more squishy than before, compounding what is already a significant weakness.

With Drunken Master and no alcohol, a warrior with, say, Flail, will have significantly more dps, even with your higher curses, simply because he'll trigger MoP more often.

HigherMinion · Jan 07, 2010, 09:20 AM // 09:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

With frenzy, you're even more squishy than before, compounding what is already a significant weakness.

With Drunken Master and no alcohol, a warrior with, say, Flail, will have significantly more dps, even with your higher curses, simply because he'll trigger MoP more often.

What's the upkeep on SY! like with this? Usually I would run Air Of Superiority, For Great Justice and SY! and other shouts to maintain SY (6 second SY ftw).

If you are running SY yourself your damage would be hindered, yes. But the general DPS of this build is low anyway apart from specific occasions when MoP triggers properly.

If you really just want a generic frontline caster that can maintain SY:

Auspicious Parry
Whirlwind Attack
Soldier's Strike
Thrill Of Victory
To The Limit
Save Yourselves!
For Great Justice
Air of Superiority

12 swords, 12 tactics.

Since you'll have the least amount of armour and get targeted often, Auspicious will fuel your adrenaline fast, and give you added defense. If you really want MoP, I'd rather bring it on a hero anyway if I were frontlining.

Xenomortis · Jan 07, 2010, 11:17 AM // 11:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

Since you'll have the least amount of armour and get targeted often

Not really. Most of the time you probably won't have SY charged as you enter a fight, so you'll begin each fight with a higher amount of armour than the rest of your team - my Nec has 83 armour in total.
I find enemies to be rather slow at switching targets when I activate SY, they only bother occasionally.

Frenzy makes little difference if you can keep PS on yourself and you'll pretty much ensure Spirit Bond triggers on every hit. It's fairly easy to keep both on yourself (ER Heroes are pretty good and SB spam, but not so efficient with PS).

Having Mark of Pain makes the build much more worthwhile. The triggers you get from it when under Hundred Blades are somewhat insane.

_Nihilist_ · Jan 07, 2010, 03:29 PM // 15:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Not really. Most of the time you probably won't have SY charged as you enter a fight, so you'll begin each fight with a higher amount of armour than the rest of your team - my Nec has 83 armour in total.
I find enemies to be rather slow at switching targets when I activate SY, they only bother occasionally.

So micro ProtSpirit and Spirit Bond on yourself, flag H/H, aggro, then unflag/reflag H/H. It's not that difficult, and you'll keep aggro. Problem solved.

HigherMinion · Jan 10, 2010, 02:47 PM // 14:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by _Nihilist_

So micro ProtSpirit and Spirit Bond on yourself, flag H/H, aggro, then unflag/reflag H/H. It's not that difficult, and you'll keep aggro. Problem solved.

Actually, if you use To The Limit, you'll be able to use SY most of the time before attacking once, if you have FGJ on. This is why I prefer the long-ranged version and less bar compression.

Hugh Manatee · Jan 10, 2010, 11:35 PM // 23:35

Quote:

Except you don't because you won't be able to guarantee a kill like that in hard areas. Seriously. Just try vloxen, SoO or slavers. N/A is one of the worst heroes to take. If you disagree, offer proof to the contrary.

Technically you're right, I do SoO with an sight beyond sight earthshaker or D-Slash backed up by 3 smiting Mo/P(2 RoJ 1 word of censure, each with smite condition and inspirational speech to get juiced while blind), Slavers needed a SWAT team to prevent resing and counter specific hurdles(the minions, the hexes, duncan ect), I swapped the Necro to ranger secondary for FS in there, I forget what elite, but I was, again, earthshaker, but then the thing you're trying to run isn't the "best" option either. When I did vlox it was sort of the same thing, I used Erfshake to disable the whole dwarf mob then blew them up with discord, MoP+minions, RoJ or maybe it was an earth ele... been awhile.

Here's the thing, if you can micro the prots it takes to prop your little guy up in front, you can micro an AP hero(or even a generic curse hero) on the guy you've targeted who's about to die. I've found that the heroes only cast "on ally" stuff on me when I've targeted myself, otherwise they cast it on themselves or just about anyone, so to micro prots you have to self target, hit the hotkeys or skill icons, then find your target again somehow, with AP you just disable it so they don't waste it and when what you're beating on is near death, hit the hotkey and it's out on your target, and if you do your job as front line damage, odds are it won't get removed before it dies, especially if you choke the AI's hex removal with covers.

Again, more MoP+more HB*WW*SY!=>death then what your "compressed" guys do, read skill descriptions, do math. And I was right, you have a whole ER hero dedicated to propping you up while you're up front.

edit:

Quote:

Actually, if you use To The Limit, you'll be able to use SY most of the time before attacking once, if you have FGJ on. This is why I prefer the long-ranged version and less bar compression.

Consider changing the secondaries on a couple of your heroes to /P, you get great melee support, a mass party res, and you can use inspirational speech to power your SY between and during fights. You have to micro it between fights, but in the fight, they'll auto spam it on you on recharge, love that skill... Also Find their weakness has this weird thing where it activates it's own DW spike, like if you apply a normal DW it won't push the HP past 0, you have to hit the guy again somehow, with FTW! the DW gets applied, THEN the attack's damage. I dunno if it still works inthe PvE split version, but it worked in the old version. Used to be hilarious on an unsuspecting strike sin...

AtomicMew · Jan 11, 2010, 02:30 AM // 02:30

Quote:

Here's the thing, if you can micro the prots it takes to prop your little guy up in front, you can micro an AP hero(or even a generic curse hero) on the guy you've targeted who's about to die. I've found that the heroes only cast "on ally" stuff on me when I've targeted myself, otherwise they cast it on themselves or just about anyone, so to micro prots you have to self target, hit the hotkeys or skill icons, then find your target again somehow, with AP you just disable it so they don't waste it and when what you're beating on is near death, hit the hotkey and it's out on your target, and if you do your job as front line damage, odds are it won't get removed before it dies, especially if you choke the AI's hex removal with covers.

Whether your argument or mine is better will not be settled with words. It is impossible to formally prove either way, and so we are both just handwaving, whether you like to think so or not.

But here's the thing: while I have stated what my build is capable of, you, and others who disagree have not been willing to even state what your builds are capable of, much less offer any proof. I'm very open-minded and perfectly capable of admitting I am wrong. I suppose it is entirely possible to take an N/A MoP hero through vloxen with H/H. However, based on my experience and the conclusions I've come to, it is not as effective as other options. Therefore, if you want to effect a decent argument, you need something more solid, as it is unlikely that more handwaving and flamey arguments will convince anyone of anything.

But if you still want to argue in this fashion, we can do that too. Here are my handwavey arguments:

-Timing AP is actually not easy against multiple healers. (Whereas per your comparison, timing prots has no chance of failure.)
-Fast recharging MoP and speeding through vloxen is less important than making sure you don't wipe. Waiting a few seconds for recharge between is just trivial.
-HB has significant downtime, anyway, without, severely limits the effectiveness of MoP. If you just auto attack through MoP, you'll just scatter the mob, which will be healed back to full anyway, giving you a scattered healthy mob.

maxxfury · Jan 11, 2010, 04:20 AM // 04:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hugh Manatee

Again, more MoP+more HB*WW*SY!=>death then what your "compressed" guys do, read skill descriptions, do math. And I was right, you have a whole ER hero dedicated to propping you up while you're up front.

We are still assuming the player is a necro here right? as thats the point of this thread, doin it as a necro, NOT a primary warrior. Comparing it to what a primary warrior can do with its hero's isnt/shouldnt be directly part of THIS discussion or a reason to shoot down the necro faking it.

That discussion would be a w/n with mop vs a n/w with mop, and the numbers there show n/w wins with the higher spec mop in that case, all be it by a couple of 100 points, with been more fragile as a downside.
Or W/x with hb/ww/sy vs N/w with hb/ww/sy (with or without a mop nuker hero) blatant win for warrior in that case.

Obviously a primary warrior is a better platform to abuse sy/ww/hb/urfshaker/blah blah/ect ect but thats not contested nor the point here, its to discuss the best way for a nec to do it

for better or worse.

----------

Its a pretty specific set of rules and limitations you need to play by, been bound to a necro primary! And base it on its own merits/failures vs other types of necro bar you can run in H&H situation.

You have to weigh up weather you should play(in this context) and how they match up to other necro bars:

> necro as a pure hb/sy 'warrior' with a mop nuker hero & 2 others.
or
> necro as a hb/sy 'warrior' with a 14/16 mop on your bar & 3 hero's.

The nec only has to spec 12 for swords and a couple for sr, leaving a whole lot of spare points over, and with mop been a BIG hit, surely it makes sense in this situation to throw mop on the bar? or have left over points and spare skill slots. *shrugs*

Sidenote: id micro a ps and maybe an sb on any frontline running into a dangerous situation if i had an ERinfoozer hero, Its not like they cant do it with heaps of times and energy to spare.

peace

*edit*(apologies if this post comes across as aggressive, i didnt notice till i read it back, wasnt intended as such)

AtomicMew · Jan 11, 2010, 07:46 AM // 07:46

Quote:

Comparing it to what a primary warrior can do with its hero's isnt/shouldnt be directly part of THIS discussion or a reason to shoot down the necro faking it.

That's not what I have been arguing at all. I am not faking anything. "Faking" implies that the "fake" is less effective than the "real" e.g. warrior primary. While that is the conclusion you have come to, it is not mine and I am certainly part of this discussion.

HigherMinion · Jan 11, 2010, 11:01 AM // 11:01

If you want to h/h Vloxen and you are not a warrior/para/derv/ranger/etc then you can run something damagy instead of trying to throw SY into your build, just because you're not surviving easily.

If you are failing without SY, then just change around your heroes, bring more prots, lure better, etc.

I'm not saying a N/W is bad, because I have recently been vanquishing Elona with a friend, we both run necros.

me=MoP
him= SY spammer

But because I am the MoP, the bar is alot better, less compressed, full of helpful shouts, ways to fuel SY faster.

Soldier's Stance
To The Limit
Air Of Superiority
For Great Justice
EBSoH
Shield's Up
Protector's Defense

With a spear and shield and tormentor's, you can have the same armour and range as a paragon. Just missing TNTF, but I've never been in a situation where I thought I'd survive with 35% damage reduction.

Zahr Dalsk · Mar 01, 2010, 09:38 PM // 21:38

I support this idea on the basis of "Keeping SY up is good since Anet refuse to give heroes PvE skills."

As it stands, though, I'll stick with killing the shit out of everything by means of spirits and discord, and generally making everything dead before it can retaliate.